White nationalists? Alt-right? If you see a Nazi, say Nazi | Lindy West | The Guardian
“What does it take to call a Nazi a Nazi? In the interminable fortnight since the election of Donald Trump, the US press has been floundering in a gyre of panic over the internal taxonomy of racists.
For months, many (myself included) indulged Trump’s base in their euphemism of choice, the “alt-right”, an attempt to rebrand warmed-over Reconstruction-era white supremacy as a cool, new (and harmless!) internet fad. Despite the fact that Breitbart News (described by former honcho turned Trump adviser Stephen Bannon as “the platform for the alt-right”) had, at one point, a news tag labeled “black crime”, and was a driver of the racist conspiracy theory that Barack Obama was a secret Kenyan Muslim, the press contorted itself into labyrinthine knots to avoid applying the word “racist” to Bannon or Trump in any committed way. (In our post-meaning world, being called a racist is nearly as grievous as being a racist.)“
Full text: White nationalists? Alt-right? If you see a Nazi, say Nazi | Lindy West | Opinion | The Guardian
The line in bold is superb.
What we’re watching is in essence not only the destruction of reason, but the destruction of language- the two are evidently connected. A few nights ago one of these alt-right/Breitbart figures was on the news and when asked about the (verifiably) fake stories on that site his answer was anything can be true or not true. Interesting because that line for example is simply not true.
The Christian Right has been laying the groundwork for this mindset for decades. Whenever the facts or the evidence haven’t matched up with their ideology, they manage to call into question the evidence and then proceed to fabricate their own. There’s an interesting article in TDB today which in fact mentions this phenomena and quotes Bannon praising Palin for her death panels lie. When you know something isn’t true and you push it anyway for personal gain… what’s that called? I’m sure there’s a name for it.
My Mazamet 
The conservative Right loves to call their recent victories (Brexit, Trump, among others) a backlash against the evils of the Left – in one sense they are correct, it IS a backlash – but not for the reasons offered. We’ve got a long way to go in certain areas, but there have been improvements to things like gender equality, homosexual rights, and a gradual shift to a fairer, more inclusive society. This is what’s being railed against, under the insidious guise of things like ‘religious freedom’ and the like.
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The recent victories aren’t real victories. They’re the result of fraud, pure and simple.
Did you see yesterday’s IFS figures? Turns out the doomsday scenario was no fantasy.
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I have to admit, I didn’t catch much of the news about anything yesterday, so I’m not aware of the IFS figures.
What I am aware of is the impact Brexit’s uncertainty has already had on the British high street. One of my former employers is ditching UK shores, and unless a buyer can be found for the UK arm, over a thousand people will lose their jobs. My current employers have hiked their prices for the first time in about five years, and some of the external suppliers we deal with have been doing likewise, all by around 10%, and we haven’t even started the process to leave yet. But it’s ok, because ‘freedom’.
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I’m late to discovering Black Mirror and watched this one last night. It was made in 2013 and very prescient. It’s not cheerful but I recommend it as a very neat analysis of these recent ‘victories’: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Waldo_Moment
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Preaching?
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That too!
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Lying!
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Maka,
Preaching is what people like you do when people like me exercise our freedom of religion, freedom of speech and freedom to own guns.
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SoM, what rights of yours have actually been curtailed lately?
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Darthimon, do you know what is lunatic express talking about?
Anyone here restricted his freedom to talk nonsense?
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Darth,
You must be hallucinating me with another one of your Christian, right wing villains.
Please read my comment and then get back to me.
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It’s a fair question.
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Darth,
It isn’t a valid question because my comment has nothing to do about my rights being taken away.
Your ploy is to hallucinate something ridiculous, assign the ridiculous to me, and then insist that I explain it.
My comment is about rabid, foaming at the mouth leftists, who go simply cannot tolerate basic freedom.
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SOM, an interesting story for you. This is how pro-Trump anti-Clinton stories are made. Anger can make people believe any BS. Beware. You may be making someone rich not knowing it.
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Machiavellianism comes to mind.
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Such is the nature of politics 😉
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Sounds just like some fundamentalist religious people. They do the very same thing with facts and evidence they don’t like or agree with. Hugs
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Scottie,
Your description of “they” sounds exactly like you.
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Hello Troll. No that is not the same and if you would have read the comment I made and tried at least to convert it you would have had a better agreement. Show me the proof of your statement! Silly troll. Hugs
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Scottie,
Thank you.
I say it. You prove it.
In the meantime, get your hatred under control.
It makes you look like a complete idiot when you say things like, “Hugs.”
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How about just racist scumbags? I don’t want to sound too mean. :p
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Musings,
You don’t sound too mean. You just sound like a fool.
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Unfortunately, these whacky evangelicals are flooding Brazil (and Australia).
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Brazil is easy prey, I’m presuming they’re less successful in Australia.
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Too easy, and sadly there are fertile fields of nutters in Oz, too. The one saving grace, Pauline Hanson and her alt-right party are not whacky religious. The evangelicals here, though, have gotten deep inside politics.
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Lying in bed, reading the morning news in Australia. I think this qualifies as an example of making the truth look like whatever you want … http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-25/pauline-hanson-visits-the-great-barrier-reef-climate-change/8059142
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And John Zande – I’m still trying to work out how Lyle Shelton, Wendy Francis and the Australian Christian Lobby have so much influence but they do. They have Cory Bernardi and George Christesen by the short and curlies and are directly influencing the senate. They’ve just opened a ‘civil liberties’ law firm in Canberra. Big money, far right politics and a scary amount of power
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John’s right, there are evangelicals here too. Was shocked when invited to the christening of one of my niece’s children – the congregation were encouraged to ‘speak in tongues’. That was the point at which my self-control broke. I left.
Not sure how many evangelicals there are, or how much influence they actually have, but they are here and I wouldn’t be surprised if some are included amongst Hanson’s followers. Luckily /she/ is not yet as powerful as she’d like to be. 😦
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John,
I here there’s a place for people like you in Bariloche, Argentina.
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I’d really like to know who you are SoM. Sometimes I get the impression you’re actually smarter than you sound. Are you a troll as Scottie thinks? If you are, you’re far more likely to engage us if you offer something we can admire. Name calling is just…a bit childish. Please don’t embarrass yourself by continuing with this sad tactic. You never know, if you showed your true self, we might actually like you and want to talk to you.
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Acflory,
If you don’t have anything to add to the discussion STFU, would you?
Your holier than though preaching is just too Christianlike.
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-giggles- you are troll! Thought so.
Pinky? I know you find him amusing, but the best way to silence a SoM is to ignore it. Or block it. In the interests of free speech I wouldn’t recommend that, but please don’t feed him any more.
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Acflory,
Yeah, right.
Anyone who objects to your self-righteous preaching must be a troll.
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Agreed acflory! I’m finding it a bit tricky not to poke this bear/feed this grumpy little troll but yes, it’s time to stop . . .
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lmao – ‘grumpy little troll’ I like!
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Mr. Merveilleux,
The following is you, in your own words, arguing with yourself and losing:
“The Christian Right has been laying the groundwork for this mindset for decades. ”
The Christian Right, aka the US military, freed Europe and the world from the clutches of Communism and Fascism, both products of European philosophers who had rejected God and religion.
Philosophers like Hegel, Marx and Nietzsche brought Europe to complete ruin with their rejection of Christianity.
Further, the greatest mass murders in human history were committed by the atheist left in the Soviet Union and Mao’s China.
Western Civilization rose up with Christianity as its foundation, as a matter of fact.
Yes, Mr. Merveilleux, the facts.
One can only marvel and lament the tragedy of the leftists’ habitual hallucination of alternative realities that deny the horror of what they have actually done, a great deal of it still in living memory.
What mental illness is it where the ungrateful, stupid, deranged victim blames the ones who saved him?
Christianity has been and always will be, the salvation of the world.
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And one more lie by SOM “The Christian Right, aka the US military”. No, SOM, the US military is not the Christian Right, and I am quite happy for that. The US military is full of Christians of all different kinds, Jews, Muslims, Sikhs, Wiccans, atheists, agnostics, Ba’hai etc. Every base and every camp, plus Arlington and the other national cemetaries, are full of soldiers who aren’t and weren’t your kind of Christian at all. It’s unfortunately isn’t surprising at all to see some TrueChristian make such lies up about people who have served and who have died.
There are indeed people who want to pretend that the US military is only Christian, and only their type of Christian, but they are wannabe theocrats like you, and people like the MRFF keeps an eye on their deceitful tactics. My father served, uncles served, grandfather served, my brother served, and my husband served. And that’s just the close family. They served to defend the Constitution, something you are amazingly ignorant about. That Constitution made it so that the US was not a theocracy and didn’t have some nonsense like the divine right of kings, or some idiot who wants to proclaim their version of some religion the only “true” one.
I’m glad you have no problem in lying about so many things, SOM. It shows that your religion is not what you claim at all. And funny how Europe is doing quite well, despite your false claims and hopes otherwise. Your problems with projection are quite amazing. Oh and please, SOM, do tell us which version of Christianity is this “salvation”: the various Eastern Orthodox versions, the Roman Catholic version, the evangelical version (and which of those hundreds of sects), the Calvinist version with its predestination, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Mormons, etc. Surely you know, right?
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Thank you also and all your family who served and gave to make the country I live in. SOM is a troll. I could add I was an openly gay man before it officially allowed, I talk about my boyfriend and I, how the officers shielded us, I could talk about how desperately most of the armed forces fight against religious intrusion. It has become epidemic. We have to stand up and defend against this. It is worse now than it was in the 1980’s. The far right fundamentalists are winning the religious war because it is their main focus above all else. We have to combat them and we have to stand against them. Hugs
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Thanks, Scottie. Hugs to you too 🙂
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Scottie,
Calling people names isn’t an argument.
And being proud of your sexual preference is like being proud of passing a urine test.
In short, you are stupid and need to get out of the way before you hurt yourself.
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Again you prove your own stupidity.. please keep going! Love it to the max. Hugs
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Club,
The majority of American soldiers have come from Appalachia.
Audie Murphy the most decorated soldier in US history was a red neck hick from Oklahoma.
The last bastion of Christian values is the US military.
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Even if the majority of soldiers do come from Appalachia (they aren’t, most come from the deep south and west, http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2008/08/who-serves-in-the-us-military-the-demographics-of-enlisted-troops-and-officers and not even conservatives support you), that doesn’t mean that they are Christians like you, SOM. Hate to tell you but my husband and I are from the northern tip of Appalachia, which means I know your claims are false, as usual. The reason that many Appalachian folks are in the military is that they are poor. Again, there is no correlation to your kind of Christianity and military services. You may of course present evidence to support your claim. There are also a lot of people from the South who serve. The only correlation is economics, not religion. As always, you may provide evidence for your claims.
Audie Murphy was a very decorated soldier. This does not support your false claims. And again, the US military is not Christian and does not follow your version of your religion. There is also the problem that many men didn’t get medals because they weren’t white and were passed over. Happily, that is something that the military is trying to correct now.
Audie Murphy was also from Texas, not Oklahoma. You seem to not even be able to do basic research. He was a really great soldier, and he suffered for it with PTSD.
Humayun Khan, Pat Tillman, my husband, and all of honorable men and women who serve are happily not the TrueChristian that you claim to be, SOM. They served, and sometimes died for their country. Then we have you, who chooses to lie repeatedly about them and about so many other things. It’s not hard to see that your version of Christianity isn’t something to admire.
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Club,
Your article comes from 2008.
The article I refer to comes from the Wall Street Journal which gave a more historical outlook.
As usual you just cherry pick whatever you want to make your nonsense work for you.
And my apologies to Audie Murphy.
No Texan alive or dead would want to be mistaken for coming from any other state other than Texas.
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so, you should be able to provide a link and I am waiting for it.
You made a claim and it was wrong, as you have done so many times. Your ignorance about Audie Murphy is typical. You also, I’m guessing, have no idea that he was a Freemason. I’ve been reading some Christian sites about Mr. Murphy and oh the need to declare he was of their particular sect, though there is no evidence of this at all. He did believe in God; we know that from his poetry. You tried to use him as a example and as usual, you failed. Other than that, we don’t have much information on what he believed and again, your false claims do not show that the US military is somehow your version of Christianity is equal to the US military which is not true at all. Again, we see your lies, SOM. And I have not cherry picked anything. Is the information I presented true or not?
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SOM, where is this article you claim to have sourced from WSJ? I’ve done some research and the only WSJ article I have found regarding US military demographics appears to use the same study I referenced. I’m still waiting for you to support your claims. As usual, it seems you post to Mr. M’s blog, insisting some nonsense, and when you are shown to be attempting to spread false information, you run away from that discussion, to only try again on another post. I do wonder why you do this for at this point, you’ve shown you have no credibility.
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Why does the US military allow Christians to join? They have a ‘shall not kill’ rule at the heart of their religion.
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there is that very problem. Most Christians do have an issue with the pacifism in the bible (although it has many contradictions against that, even by JC himself) and seem to want to argue that as long as their god can murder anyone it wants, they can too.
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Aren’t Nazis Christian?
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Som, that’s so ridiculous I won’t waste much time answering. Did you know the US wouldn’t have become an independent country without France? Particularly the French southerners who not only poured money into the war, but fought in it. People like my ancestor Paul Francois Ignace de Barlatier de Mas- who Ben Franklin gave a hereditary seat to at the Society of the Cincinnati.
We could very well argue America itself is the product of European philosophers, money, culture and soldiers.
Chew on that.
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Mr. Merveilleux,
Thank you for a history lesson that has absolutely nothing to do with your erroneous claim that a vast right wing, Christian conspiracy is ruining the world.
Hillary Clinton used that lie when she was defending the sexual predation of her pervert husband Bill.
The truth is that Western Civilization and the modern world of today are the result of Christians fighting and dying to make it happen.
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Do you ever answer the question put to you???? Or do you just troll for the fun of it?? I have been on many blog posts where you were involved where you were shown so lacking, and then you went on to deny reality? If you lost the argument and then slink away, I am OK with that. IF you lost the argument and just deny it, well the record is there! If you lost the argument and just want to pretend that you won it, which is what you are doing now , making yourself a joke, I have nothing but sadness for you. Hugs
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Scottie,
What question would that be?
Looking through your comments, all I see is stupid, name-calling bigot writ large.
And BTW, you need a box of tissue to mop your hateful, foaming mouth.
Hugs, what a joke!
You are crazy with hatred.
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Thank you for proving my point… You really can’t be that dumb. Such a troll. Hugs
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Scottie,
What argument?
All you’ve done is offer verbal abuse frosted by your slimy hugs.
Icky poo!
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Projection much??? look my writings stand as proof against your accusations. You offer no information or proof. So you are either a POE, or a total troll. Either way you have proven yourself. I had no part in it really, you showed how you really are. Keep going, you are not convincing anyone and you won’t do much here. Maybe you should try another blog where you could cause so havick. Sadly now that I know what you really are, I won’t even read or engage in your writings from here on out. Be frozen . Sadly if you wanted to make a convert, you proved there was nothing to convert to. Sad for you hugs
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read your own texts troll….. have fun.. it is not effecting me. Hugs
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Scottie,
The fact is that Christianity has been and is, the salvation of world.
Just study history, you’ll see.
It is Hillary Clinton’s notion that a vast Christian right wing conspiracy is at the root of all evil, that is without proof or evidence.
Leftists blame Christians for the failure of their own ideas which simply isn’t rational.
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Dogma without proof… care to give it.. TROLL. OH but this is what you like, someone responding to your really stupid comments. silly person. Hugs
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“The fact is that Christianity has been and is, the salvation of world.” One of the world’s most stupid, uneducated, knowledgeable, and idiotic things ever written. And the saddest part is he is proud of it. Again either a POE or a TROLL. No one can be that dense and dumb. Hugs
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Scottie,
Actually it is the leftist (that would be you) denial of history that is the tragedy.
You’ve had over a century to ruin things.
Now it’s time for you Godless people to stand aside and let Christian values once again become the coin of the realm.
Did you know that God is mentioned 4 times in the Declaration of Independence?
And you would be sorely disappointed with George Washington’s first Inaugural Address, the writings of Abraham Lincoln and the all those public addresses by FDR during World War II.
God and Christian values spill forth from them like a fountain of justice.
Scottie, stop hallucinating hell on Earth, and study some history.
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Do you need me to give you another history lesson?
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By the gods? , do you not know the founding fathers were deist ? They did not support any religion in government or in daily life. That has been proven. You seem to be making up your own reality here dude. Sad hugs
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Scottie,
Your comment has nothing to do with the topic at hand, which is that Christian values are responsible for our civilization.
Who cares whether some of the Founding Fathers were deists?
And nobody here is advocating a Christian theocracy.
In the Declaration of Independence there is the God of Nature and Nature’s Law (the legislative branch), the God of Providence (the executive branch) and God the Judge (the judicial branch).
Only God has the power to rule over men. That is why government power to rule over men was separated into three branches of government.
Consequently, you can’t be American if you don’t believe in God.
Atheists are outsiders who need to quit forcing Christians to accept your Godless ways.
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Ah, Pink, if you blocked SoM imagine how much less entertained we would be without her well thought out arguments and articulate comments… 😀
Anyway, Christianity will never be the salvation of the world. It has had two thousand years to do it and not yet succeeded, how much longer do you need?
I think the kind of organisation that can’t even stand its members having different opinions is far more likely to turn on itself rather than make the world a better place. Until that end I can only imagine it trying for a hostile takeover rather than any kind of ‘saving’.
We need more reasonable humans in the world, ones who can accept that different viewpoints are just different, not evil, otherwise you are suggesting that the only way you can get what you want is by beating everyone else into submission, but your religion really was superior you wouldn’t have to do that, we’d all be beating down your door to join the club. Of course people who are sure that their belief system is the only one that will save the world are the reasons for many problem in the Middle East, aren’t they?
While I’m here, below you made a derisory comment regarding belief in the destruction of native Americans (you called it brainwashing), and above you blamed the worst mass murders in history on atheists. I’m interested to know what you consider a genocide. Is it only considered one when people like you are the victims? Are you saying that if only a few thousand natives are killed (even if it is a huge percent of the entire population) it’s not a genocide because it can’t possibly compare to the killing of Christians like you?
And, as I step off my godless soapbox, I will leave with the observation that below you say “the last bastion of Christian values is the American military”, which is interesting, shouldn’t the last bastion of your values be your church?
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Brilliant 😀
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Metan,
Regarding the progress of Christianity for the last 2000 years…
…It is absolutely amazing that atheists, who are responsible for the greatest mass murders in human history, would put an arbitrary time limit on Christianity, then pronounce it a failure.
It is obvious that Christian values have brought about a world that is unimaginably grand, just and prosperous.
The millennia that it has taken man to get this far is a testament to our terrible condition, not the Christian values that address and heal such terror.
It is unfortunate that like the universe, atheists believe our modern world just happened all by itself.
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We haven’t put a time limit on you, we’re just curious as to how long you think this world domination plan is really going to take. After all, surely a sign that the golden age for your church has passed is that we can have these kinds of conversations in public without me being worried the religion police will come knocking on the door and invite me out for a period of ‘reeducation’. Not so in the past.
You’re right, the world is unimaginably grand, just, and prosperous, for some. For much of humanity the world is a hard, hungry, and dangerous place. There’s no way you can say that there’s a lack of Christian values in places like favelas, or Africa, but very few of the millions of lives there are grand, just, or prosperous. Is your god just being selective as to which of his believers get the good stuff?
Interested that you have flagged your creationist beliefs too. And please, help me out, because my childhood Sunday school teachers never could. Explain dinosaurs to me.
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Very cool article. This is why I think the concept of “godwinning” is nonsense. It’s only an attempt to remove a very potent argument from use.
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I think you’re right. What various groups have attempted to do is make the Nazi/holocaust phenomena into a “myth”.
The problem is othering is a continuum. Exclusion to persecution is a very short path.
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Exactly.
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Notwithstanding the truth in your last sentence, Pink, what’s the line between inclusion and allowing someone to shit in your nest? In other words, are you sick of SoM yet?
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There’s an old French expression about inviting people to one’s house… and them urinating on the floor. At its origin it was about class/aristocracy.
Now I suppose we can apply it to Som, and what is at its core, social vandalism. Ideological vandalism. Intellectual vandalism. I still stand by the notion I can make that argument and win. Or so I keep telling myself.
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It’s really interesting when people decide not to block trolls. A while ago, a WordPress friend of mine, Jo, provoked a TERF war with one of her posts on trans kids. She let it run its course. It’s now a rather fascinating 21st century artefact recording how extremist ideologies end up eating themselves: https://parentingjeremy.com/2015/09/27/when-the-momma-bears-get-angry/#comments
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Very interesting! Mostly because I totally recognize the discourse. Sine Rose = Purple Sage = Lavender Blume. That’s the same crazy person who twitter bombed me. She’s got multiple internet identities- I don’t mean 3 or 4 but at least 20.
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Mr. Merveilleux,
It’s your blog, you can give any kind of lesson you wish.
But if it’s about “history” the “h” stands for hallucination.
The left’s version of history comes from the old Soviet Union propaganda ministry.
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Does that mean you think France didn’t bankroll and virtually create an independent USA?
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Mr. Merveilleux,
Can you please tell your vast audience what France helping out the Colonies in the Revolutionary War has to do with Christian America saving the world from the NAZI’s, the Communists and Imperial Japan?
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Scroll up to your first comment. That’s what I’ve answered.
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Mr. Merveilleux,
I have read your silly comment which does not address the issue of Christian America saving Europe from itself.
You don’t know enough about history to give anyone a lesson.
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SOM, why do you think America is “Christian”? Isn’t freedom of religion a cornerstone of the United States? For centuries, since its inception, America serves as a sanctuary for people who seek to escape prosecution from governments associating themselves with religions and ideologies. And that’s what makes it a great country and a magnet for people of all creeds. Not “Christianity”.
I hope, America will never become a country associating itself with a religion. That will start an era when people will flee from this country, not to this country.
The U.S. was founded, largely, on the French secular ideas of Liberty. The statue of Liberty is a gift from France. Perhaps, most of the founders happened to be Christians, but it does not mean that the country is founded on Christianity. Any religion has good ideas. Even Hitler did some good things for Germany. Built famous German autobahns, for example. It does not mean that building roads and infrastructure is a Nazi idea.
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Agrudzinsky,
As I stated in a previous comment, America was settled by almost exclusively by Christians.
The Pilgrims came to America seeking religious freedom.
The Thanksgiving holiday commemorates the Pilgrims giving thanks to God for the success of their settlement.
Religious and economic freedom were what motivated people from all over the world to settle in America.
You people who were educated to think America is for atheists, gay marriage, transexual rest rooms, abortion and climate change have been grossly misled.
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Interesting. Why couldn’t they freely practice their religion in Christian Europe?
Perhaps, we should abolish special parking places for disabled people, Braille labels in elevators and on ATM’s, and quit making ramps for wheelchairs. America wasn’t founded by or for blind and disabled, was it? Why would a majority even bother with the needs of tiny minorities?
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By the way, antisemitism in Germany wasn’t invented by atheists or Nazis. Just read the work of the much revered Christian founder of the Protestant Reformation Martin Luther “On the Jews and Their Lies”. Hitler simply took these “Christian” ideas a step farther.
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“America was settled by almost exclusively by Christians.”
I feel compelled to point out that even pre-Columbus, there were as many as 18 million people settled in North America. And no, they were not Christian.
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So?
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Agrudzinsky,
You people should take note about how you respond when your worldview is questioned.
You and Mr. Merveilluex immediately change the subject and Scottie and others start foaming at the mouth and dishing out verbal abuse.
They let it slip ever so unsubtly that the host should ban the “troll”.
Still others begin self-righteously preaching.
For crying out loud, one of you even tried laying down the ever popular guilt trip about the plight of the saintly Native American at the hands of those eeeevil European white men.
These are all signs of serve, long term brainwashing.
You folks no longer have the capacity to think rationally or respond rationally when your worldview is questioned.
This is why people like me, all over the civilized world, are going to democratically kick you people out of power.
You’re crazy. And crazy people with power are dangerous.
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SOM. Hmm… Where did I change the subject? As you stated earlier, the debate is whether “our civilization is based on Christian values”. By “our civilization” you seem to mean the United States. And I’m questioning that Christianity is indeed the foundation of the America’s success as a nation and suggesting that, perhaps, it is not as much Christianity as the secular European idea of liberty. Now, instead of answering about the matter at hand, you prefer to discuss the personalities of your opponent’s and declare them crazy and incapable to comprehend your superb reason or absorb your superb knowledge. That’s a different topic which I am not very interested to discuss. I can only congratulate you on your ultimate superiority and wish you well. :-).
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Agrudzinsky,
Tyranny is way the Pilgrims did not have religious freedom.
The US Constitution and the Bill of Rights is the first government in human history that was designed for freedom, not tyranny.
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SOM. If Christianity were the cause of liberty, it would produce liberty invariably anywhere in the world. Since Christianity in Europe produced tyranny, we must conclude that the liberty in the U.S. is NOT a result of Christian beliefs of its founders. This means that there liberty in the US is a result of some other principles.
There are no politics in this reasoning. Just logic, based on your own premise that Christian pilgrims fled Christian Europe to find freedom.
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Agrudzinsky,
Who said that Christianity is the source of liberty?
The Declaration of Independence states that God is the source of liberty and that man by nature is endowed with the inalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
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It’s pretty frightening that people like SOM think Christians rule the world and that the US is a “Christian Nation,” and up to us to police the world to make sure it is free from communism, atheism, and fascism. I was pretty sure the Cold War ended in 1989.
I am embarrassed and ashamed, but relieved, that I am not someone of color or LBGTQ. I stand with all the people in the US, but know that many do not stand by me just because I am Atheist. Stupid.
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Apple,
I did not say that Christians rule the world.
That is just you hallucinating your hatred for Christians.
And yes, the United States is a Christian nation founded on Christian values.
The North American continent was settled by European Christians in the East and Spaniard Catholics in the West.
My goodness!
What sort of drivel are they brainwashing you folks with in school these days.
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You do know that not all the Founding Fathers believed in god, right? Certainly, Christianity was brought here by Europeans, who routinely subjugated indigenous peoples and forced their religious views on them. The Christian Right is trying to say America is a Christian Nation. We may have had a Christian beginning, but Christianity is not the National Religion. Something America never was and never going to be.
My brainwashing ended when I walked away from religion more than 40 years ago. And guess what? I haven’t killed anyone. I haven’t lied. I haven’t stolen. All without god’s heavy hand forcing me. In a word, “Free”, something Christians just do not understand.
And no need to be so snide and condescending. It does not improve your weak position.
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Nazi is a historic term. The Nazi party (NSDAP – Nazional-Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei) does not exist anymore. So, when someone is called “Nazi” today it’s in some metaphoric sense. And this term is so worn from continuous use that it has lost any meaning. These days, many people are called “Nazis”. Russians call “Nazis” people in Ukraine who decided to kick out their corrupt president while supporting ultra-nationalists in Europe. Republicans call liberals “Nazis” pointing out that Hitler was a socialist. Democrats call conservatives “Nazis” for their dislike of minorities and immigrants. If I wear a Hitler-like mustache, I would be called a Nazi too.
The term “Nazi” is meaningless these days. It’s reserved for people we hate who we think hate us. I avoid discussions on whether to call someone a “Nazi”. I understand why Pence refused to call KKK “deplorable”. For me, it does not mean that he supports KKK. It just means that he avoids name-calling and sorting people into “baskets” which, imo, is good.
And yes, we witness a distortion of language. This reminds me of the “newspeak” from “1984”.
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True. ‘Nazi’ has become a lazy term (remember the ‘soup-Nazi’ in Seinfeld? I don’t even remember anyone saying it was a bit of a risky joke for a Jewish sit-com). Also, I sometimes need to remind myself that the German Nazis considered themselves socialists, of sorts.
I would like to think language is experiencing a renewal rather than an erosion. I’m not sure, though. I do think it’s time to reconsider, deeply what ‘left’ and ‘right’ alliances mean, because they certainly have a different meaning than they had 50 years ago.
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Speaking of language contortions. There is an interesting word, “antidisestablishmentarianism”, which seems relevant here.
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SOM, your own words: “Christian values are responsible for our civilization.” and “The fact is that Christianity has been and is the salvation of world.” Now you say it’s not Christianity, but God who is the source if liberty, which may be more correct theologically. But this statement simply means that the founders believed in God. Muslims would say the same. Nothing here specifically implies Christianity. Again, you can’t claim that Christianity is the foundation of this country.
Big bang theory was created by a Catholic priest using science, not his Catholic beliefs.
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Anyone who would post such a ludicrous (and Snopes-debunked) vid–the one on SOM’s blog’s first page–has no grasp of reality, IMO.
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I’ve always made it a point to never visit Som’s blog 😉
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