Just Merveilleux

Life at № 42

Ideological Poison; A side note on the propaganda and deceptive practices of Grace Church Seattle & Askthebigot

De Brujin was the victim of a homophobic attack in Paris committed by people who

De Brujin was the victim of a homophobic attack in Paris committed by people who bought into the sort of anti-gay propaganda disseminated on sites like Ask the Bigot.

Before getting to part II I think it’s important to make something crystal clear about the anti-lgbt campaign carried out at Askthebigot, and that’s the underlying implication of their arguments and propaganda.

Their proposition is structured in the following manner:

Gay marriage should be prohibited because those specific campaigners personally had negative experiences with either an lgbt parent or an lgbt spouse. They go on to describe troubled lives, drug use, promiscuity, paedophilia et al.

For that proposition to hold true and justify a ban that affects an entire collective of people, the primordial factor- the claim on which it hinges, is that these negative characteristics are not only universal, but characteristic of members of the lgbt community.

That means that when Moira Greyland says gays should not be married or have children because of her personal experience/history, what she’s really saying is that there’s no distinction to be made between her abusers and all other lgbt individuals. When Katy Faust publishes that article she is endorsing the implication that we are all monstrous child molesters.

And doing it under the guise of protecting children is even more disgusting. Nothing in their campaign protects children in any way, shape or form. In reality all of their horror stories happened decades ago when gay marriage wasn’t even on the horizon. The fact is their intent is to defame and denigrate gays. The marriage issue is nothing but a red herring. Ask the bigot(s) indeed.

And before I go I just want to address one more thing which is Katy Faust’s comment from yesterday:

katycomment

That’s fine and dandy, lovely even. The problem is it was never a conspiracy theory. The first time around Katy was using people she knew on a personal basis to bolster her propaganda. She admitted it at the time but has now decided to revise history. As for now, well, you have to go through one of her top (if not number one) commentators many hundreds of comments to find the slip; but once you get to October 9th, 2014 at 8:15 am, there it is in all its glory. An amusing exchange where IMHO admits to being Rivka. So much for wild hypotheses. So to top it all off, Mrs. Faust is a brazen, shameless liar. I guess honesty and integrity don’t figure in her version of ‘morality’.

rivka1 (1)

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66 comments on “Ideological Poison; A side note on the propaganda and deceptive practices of Grace Church Seattle & Askthebigot

  1. inspiredbythedivine1
    August 12, 2015

    Excellent work pointing this out. Looking forward to part 2 of this.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Mr. Merveilleux
      August 12, 2015

      Isn’t it just incredible how they have no compunction whatsoever about lying so brazenly?

      Liked by 2 people

      • inspiredbythedivine1
        August 12, 2015

        It truly is. Maybe she’s following the old adage of, tell a lie often enough, and it becomes the truth. Unfortunately, that’s simply not the case, as you’ve pointed out.

        Liked by 1 person

      • foolsmusings
        August 12, 2015

        That is always the case with the religious right. I think they truly believe that the end always justifies the means. If their lies or deception had horrible consequences for others they tell themselves that it’s god’s will. These are psychologically broken people who are in serious need of professional help in my opinion.

        Liked by 1 person

      • clubschadenfreude
        August 13, 2015

        one must wonder if they think that their god isn’t looking when they lie. Or if they think they can lie and then apologize to god to get off once again. it’s rather like a friend of mine’s 5 year old daughter who discovered if she said “poop” she’d get punished, but if she followed it quickly with “sorry!” she could get away with it (for a time anyway).

        Liked by 1 person

      • Mr. Merveilleux
        August 13, 2015

        At some point we have to ask if they even actually believe or if the leaders of the believers are just professional grifters.

        Like

      • clubschadenfreude
        August 13, 2015

        I’ve met perhaps two believing leaders. The rest, grifters all of the way. They have no other skills.

        Liked by 1 person

  2. john zande
    August 12, 2015

    The lies, yes. They don’t see it as lies, though, and their church has a long history of manufacturing reality.

    The seminal church historian of 3rd and 4th Century Christianity, Eusebius of Caesarea, brazenly titled the 32nd chapter of the 12th book of his Evangelical Preparation, “How it may be lawful and fitting to use falsehood as a medicine for the benefit of those who want to be deceived.” Martin Luther spoke of the necessary lie, the useful and helpful and strong lie deployed for the greater good of the church, whereas the 5th Century Christian theologian and bishop of Constantinople, John Chrysostom, articulated the benefits of deception and dishonesty in Book 1 of his Treatise On The Priesthood:

    “Do you see the advantage of deceit?… For great is the value of deceit, provided it be not introduced with a mischievous intention. In fact action of this kind ought not to be called deceit, but rather a kind of good management, cleverness and skill, capable of finding out ways where resources fail, and making up for the defects of the mind… And often it is necessary to deceive, and to do the greatest benefits by means of this device, whereas he who has gone by a straight course has done great mischief to the person whom he has not deceived.”

    Liked by 5 people

  3. roughseasinthemed
    August 12, 2015

    I have just wasted a significant portion of my life wading through (ok not reading all) some 700+ comments! About nothing in particular, that can be boiled down to whether or not people are homophobic and use children as an excuse to oppose SSM.

    Amazing. And my fault for even going there.

    But your point about very few bloggers on there remains true. When I get 50+ commenters, I can tell you something about every single one. If the odd person doesn’t have a WP blog, I know who they are too.

    And the vitriol directed towards you too, ‘in Pinkyland’. Uncalled for. Derisive, nasty, churlish comments. Pink swamp? I really don’t like to see my friends insulted, and still, the bottom line, being discriminated against for being gay. Or should I say, ‘choosing to be gay’? As the ATB followers would have it. As far as I’m concerned choice or orientation is irrelevant anyway. Do what you want. Incidentally I did notice Moira(?) mentioned her experience of BDSM and not a soul picked up on that unless I missed it.

    About the only redeeming feature on the whole blog post was a reference to Puligny Montrachet.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Mr. Merveilleux
      August 12, 2015

      The whole discussion annoyed me at first-as it would, but then I decided to have a glass of wine and amuse myself.

      Did you pick up on the dead silence once I outed the identity of Jae/Janna?
      She had been spouting off responses to everything I said within a 10/15 minute window. Then suddenly hours of silence as they try to figure out how I know who’s who. Rivka/IMHO stopped answering me all together once I mentioned her own name.

      And I wouldn’t be too impressed by the Puligny. I’m willing to bet all they did was search google for “names of fine wines.” At the end of the day that lot of people is willing to go very, very low in the hopes of what is actually quite minor recompense.
      They were hoping for media fame and fortune. Paid appearances and all that. Having seen the papers regarding payments from Witherspoon and NOM my guess is that each one of them made enough from their anti-gay campaigning to buy a used and slightly damaged stainless Rolex from around 1980.

      Liked by 1 person

      • inspiredbythedivine1
        August 12, 2015

        You’re my hero for doing this! Bravo, Sir, bravo!

        Like

      • Mr. Merveilleux
        August 12, 2015

        😀

        Liked by 1 person

      • roughseasinthemed
        August 12, 2015

        The point is, I used to drink it and enjoyed it. And I certainly didn’t need to google it. Nor would I need to google Lafite and Latour. Or Diament Bleu. I was lucky my dad had pretentious taste in French wines.

        But back to the saga. Seriously, my eyes glazed over, and starting from the beginning (another big mistake) I noticed Katy popped in occasionally to whine that she didn’t have time to moderate due to summer hols and kids (so why post?).

        It all just seemed so circuitous. Rather you than me. Still doesn’t get away from the fact these people are homophobic and trying to make pathetic excuses for it.

        Like

      • Mr. Merveilleux
        August 12, 2015

        All true. Still, I got a huge kick from telling ex-wife her husband would rather sleep with me than her. That’s when she got REALLY angry and called me swamp something 😀
        You know, I’ve been wondering how many women on there have husbands who are actually gay. What do you think?

        Like

      • inspiredbythedivine1
        August 12, 2015

        I think Wally’s a raging queen, but, he looks like, and sounds like Elmer Fudd. The dude’s just a sorry mess.

        Liked by 1 person

      • roughseasinthemed
        August 12, 2015

        Don’t know. Resorting to crass insults is not really the way to win a discussion/argument. I would call you pink swampy for fun, except it’s not funny. So, can’t be bothered.

        Don’t know about the women with gay husbands thing. I’ve had it in reverse, I’ve had men who were allegedly gay wanting to have sex with me. Maybe some on there are, due to their religious conditioning. Who knows? Maybe that would be an interesting one to ask Katy?

        But not this Kate!

        Like

    • john zande
      August 12, 2015

      I enjoyed your conversation with Wally earlier.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Mr. Merveilleux
        August 12, 2015

        Where was that?

        Like

      • Mr. Merveilleux
        August 12, 2015

        Did you know that in real life Wally sounds like this:

        Like

      • john zande
        August 12, 2015

        LOL! He’s alright. At least he’s honest, and he even recognises that a theocracy would be a terrible idea. Plus, he rescues animals. That’s a HUGE plus in his favour.

        Liked by 1 person

      • roughseasinthemed
        August 12, 2015

        Lol! Just, tak about wasting time eh? Don’t forget my chat with CS too 🙂

        Liked by 1 person

      • Mr. Merveilleux
        August 12, 2015

        Aawww, I think Wally’s cute- in a sort of “should only be allowed to eat with a spoon” sort of way.

        Like

      • roughseasinthemed
        August 12, 2015

        Wally normally chats nicely with me 🙂 he’s not banned me from his blog yet either. He likes dogs too 🙂 man can’t be all bad. I just don’t think he’s quite grasped the concept of patriarchy and gender specific sexist language (or abortion and SSM being legitimate human rights). Apart from that, we’re hunky dory. Bit like you and James and CT and CS and … 😀

        Oops, just seen your animal comment. Yes, it’s a huge plus, just needs to extend that generosity to people. I guess you can’t have everything.

        Liked by 1 person

      • john zande
        August 12, 2015

        He also takes in cats. His vision is clear in one respect. Shouldn’t be speaking behind his back, but I think he enjoys the comradely of his church. He is an army vet, so maybe he substituted one authoritarian regime for another, and did so because he actually likes it? Likes in the sense of the order it brings to life. I can understand that, if that is the case.

        I think James banned me today 😦

        Liked by 1 person

      • roughseasinthemed
        August 12, 2015

        I don’t say anything elsewhere that I wouldn’t say in front of someone. Don’t remember a cat discussion with him, but we did discuss dogs, as you say, big plus. I see what you are saying, ie something filling a vacuum. Sad to need a myth/delusion to fill that though. I thought James had banned you 20 times before! Don’t tell me you asked a difficult question?

        Liked by 1 person

      • john zande
        August 12, 2015

        Yeah, something about chimps and humans. I can’t help myself 🙂

        Liked by 1 person

      • Mr. Merveilleux
        August 12, 2015

        You just made me spit out my wine. “Grasped the concept of gender specific sexist language”- or perhaps the theories of Foucault? I have the impression you all might be dealing with someone who would be spared the death penalty on compassionate grounds should he ever commit a heinous crime. Why don’t you test my theory some time. Ask him to define democratic socialism, or what he thinks about feminist theory. I’d love to see his answers.

        Like

      • roughseasinthemed
        August 12, 2015

        Apologies. I would hate to make you waste a decent mouthful,of wine.

        I’ve tried feminism already. I’m not doing well.

        Is socialism taught in America? (It stopped in the UK when Blair emulated Thatcher.)

        Like

  4. Miss Alternative Opinion
    August 12, 2015

    I’m going to take a hint and guess that some of the commentators on Katy’s blog has pissed you off as much as they have pissed off me.

    Out of pure curiosity, would you be as pissed off with the blog, if some of Katy’s followers didn’t come off as irrational and verbally abusive homophobic trolls, who accused gay people for being evil child molesters, by default? Like, for instance, what if their only concerns was black market adoption and IVF?

    Like

    • Mr. Merveilleux
      August 12, 2015

      The lying really bothers me. The fakery too. I also dislike the way Katy used me personally. Her “I’m not a bigot” routine consisted of telling people that she and I were friends. I was the posterboy of how she was not a bigot. She was deceiving me and her listeners at the same time.

      Like

      • Miss Alternative Opinion
        August 12, 2015

        Hey Mr. M, I don’t think she’s realizing what she’s doing, and that’s the issue. I know this sounds bad, but she doesn’t see how it would offend a gay friend when she’s preaching that his marriage should be illegal, and that his sexuality is a changeable lifestyle choice. Because, to her eyes, its “god’s word”. Religion is quite influential. To those who follow it its their ultimate truth.

        When talking politics, I think she will grasp at anything to prove that she’s isn’t hateful or bigoted. Quite honestly I would do it too, especially if I were in her position and there is already a stigma attached to being a christian against gay marriage, and gay parenting.

        At the same time its very reasonable for those of us who she uses to talk about, to feel some suspicion or exploitation. Especially when she’s using the friendships of gay men, to speak against their right to marry their partners. So I do understand where you’re coming from too.

        The last few posts have really made me question her again. I don’t want to jump to conclusions, because, for all I know, it could not be true. But I do wonder why she used Moira’s voice in her stance against gay marriage, of all people, especially since Maria’s gay mom and dad were in a heterosexual marriage (as Katy has stated is what gay men and lesbians should do if they want to raise kids), during the time they molested the poor woman. So with that said, it does comes across that Katy is endorsing in the idea that this isn’t about moms and dads, or gay people’s involvement in IVF, but to instead suggest the idea that gay people are inherently evil child-molesters.

        However, on the flip-side, there are only a handful of adult children of gays who are publicly speaking up against gay parenting, so maybe Katy is just grasping at any voice she could get. Still, if I were in her position, I would much rather want quality criticism against same-sex parenting from children who’ve grown up in it, rather than any criticism to make gay people look bad. It looks really, really, bad, from this end, and make Katy look fake, and like she’s exploiting emotionally unstable abuse victims to make her case against gay marriage.

        I would encourage you to speak your critiques against Katy’s blog content and her commentators if you wish, but please not to drag her church into this. A lot of her members aren’t against same-sex marriage or parenting. They don’t believe members of their church should engage, but don’t necessarily think the rest of the USA should comply. To them their views are just for traditional sake.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Mr. Merveilleux
        August 12, 2015

        The problem is that to be part of her church people have to sign a document which endorses homophobia.

        Like

      • Miss Alternative Opinion
        August 12, 2015

        What document is this?

        Like

      • Mr. Merveilleux
        August 12, 2015

        The membership covenant of which I have a copy which I took before they decided to take it down from their website.

        Like

      • Miss Alternative Opinion
        August 12, 2015

        Could you send me a picture of it, please?

        Like

      • Mr. Merveilleux
        August 12, 2015

        Sure. Where should I send it to?

        Like

      • Miss Alternative Opinion
        August 12, 2015

        Can you post it in your next blog reply? Thank you! I talked to Katy, and had no idea about such document.

        Like

      • Mr. Merveilleux
        August 12, 2015

        I posted it on the Pink Agendist a year ago. Soon afterwards they took it down from the Grace Church website. On Askthebigot Katy says they took it down because of me. I’m happy to re-post it now. I’ve kept Every Single Document in this case.

        Like

      • Miss Alternative Opinion
        August 12, 2015

        Mm, can you just post it in this reply? If not I totally understand. Either way I just want to see what you’re talking about.

        Like

      • Mr. Merveilleux
        August 12, 2015

        WordPress doesn’t allow attachments in messages, but I’m happy to repost the whole document, so people know what I’m talking about.
        At this point I want all cards on the table, which is why I posted Rivka’s comment verbatim- where she admits to being Rivka.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Miss Alternative Opinion
        August 12, 2015

        I’m going to tell you where I’m coming from. Katy says you’ve tried exposing her on the internet because she said some things you didn’t like. She says you tried humiliating her church, in a attempt to try to silence her. Personally, if I were going to speak public about something, I would accept that I will be “exposed” so I don’t see any issues with that, but apparently to her, Oregon state has laws against that. And she finds it a low blow that you’re going after her church members, even when they don’t really have anything to do with it.

        With that all said, I’m partially wary about you… despite the fact, you don’t seem very dangerous, and even your views on children’s rights seem quite neutral and reasonable.

        So again, that’s the angle I’m coming from and why I’m being very suspicious and careful.

        Thanks. Please clarify if need be.

        Like

      • Mr. Merveilleux
        August 12, 2015

        You’re welcomed to be both suspicious and careful. I verifiably don’t have a personal agenda. I don’t need media attention, I don’t need money, I have nothing to gain from any of this.
        Last week a child was flushed down a public toilet in China: http://edition.cnn.com/2015/08/04/asia/china-baby-toilet-beijing/
        My aim actually is the well being of children. The millions of them that are abandoned and need help. Every decent person of good will who has the means and is vetted by social services should be helping. Katy used to say she agreed with that, but her actions show something quite different.
        That’s where I’m coming from.

        Like

      • Miss Alternative Opinion
        August 12, 2015

        What actions are you speaking of? Thanks.

        We know each other personally, and I would like to know about her personally before continuing a friendly relationship. She has also asked to speak about me publicly too.

        Like

      • Mr. Merveilleux
        August 12, 2015

        Her destructive actions. She decided homophobia was a good business plan. That’s why and how she joined Rivka/Lopez/Janna and even Boyle, the amicus brief guy.
        Suddenly she’s being called an ‘expert’ on the subject by her own husband. That’s what they’re trying to sell.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Mr. Merveilleux
        August 12, 2015

        P.S. did you notice she closed the comments after the names of her commentators were revealed?

        Liked by 1 person

      • Miss Alternative Opinion
        August 12, 2015

        Personally I thought she did that because they assumed you and another user was threatening to expose ‘Jae’, and use her comments against her. According to her, ‘Jae’ isn’t that woman with the gay ex-husband. I personally don’t know if she is or isn’t, but you have had proof that IMHO is Rv, so IDK.

        Katy just doesn’t seem like the manipulative type. I could imagine her being manipulated and puppeted by bigger powers, but not the other way around.

        Her approach doesn’t seem consistent, to be honest.

        Like

      • Mr. Merveilleux
        August 12, 2015

        Basically members aren’t allowed to question anything Mr. Faust says or his interpretation of Christianity which includes marginalizing gays.
        I think I understand why he would personally take that position, but on ethical grounds I feel I should make no further comment on that. What they choose or not to share in public is their own prerogative- not mine.

        Liked by 1 person

      • roughseasinthemed
        August 12, 2015

        Yeah, I’m not racist because I have a black friend. It’s a pretty old trick though and slightly tatty around the edges.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Mr. Merveilleux
        August 12, 2015

        OOOOOOhhhh. So that man who sells cd’s on the beach in Sabinillas is your friend too?! What a coincidence!

        Liked by 1 person

      • roughseasinthemed
        August 12, 2015

        Don’t be silly, wouldn’t be seen dead in Sabinillas. Did buy a Chambao CD at a pizza place in Torre del Mar though. Great CD:)

        Like

      • Mr. Merveilleux
        August 12, 2015

        So you admit it! He’s your black friend too!

        Like

      • roughseasinthemed
        August 12, 2015

        Absolutely! So I can’t possibly be racist because I patronised the nice man by giving him a few bucks ie euros for my pirated CD. I’m such a right-on person 🙂

        I’ll live happily ever after in my middle class nirvana.

        Like

      • Mr. Merveilleux
        August 12, 2015

        But did you ever buy one his Rolexes?
        + Don’t say middle class where there are Americans reading! They don’t understand that what we call middle-class is not what they call middle class.

        Like

      • Miss Alternative Opinion
        August 12, 2015

        Hope you got my last (long) reply. Have a good one, Mr. M.

        Like

  5. Miss Alternative Opinion
    August 12, 2015

    Also, how in God’s name do I get a picture on my Gravatar??? I have reinstalled one several times, a month ago and it hasn’t popped up.

    Like

  6. davidprosser
    August 12, 2015

    Honesty, integrity and morality are not the lynch pin criteria for someone who is trying to manipulate others. I’m always left wondering which of two groups someone like this falls under,. Is it the group that genuinely has a belief they want to disseminate, and if so where did such a strong belief come from? I can’t believe it’s a Christian belief as it flies in the face of their teachings of tolerance. Or could it be that there is something to gain from this manipulation of others like the wealth gained by many of the weird and wonderful cult leaders out there?
    I’m sure you’ll search it out and enlighten me.
    Hugs

    Like

  7. Epicabundance
    August 13, 2015

    When I first read Moira’s story I was horrified and thought homosexuals must be sex-crazed monsters and a danger to children. Plus they can’t biologically reproduce, so that settles it! But then I started to challenge the idea after reading some of the comments, and took the chance of asking you some questions. I was pretty sure you were going to confirm my mindset that gays were evil and irrational and over emotional, but you were actually pretty nice so there went that theory.😉
    Anyway, I’m wondering the same thing, why would Katy post a story like that? Her mom is a lesbian and she thinks her mom is awesome, so why would she try to persuade people gays are all like Moira’s parents? And if ART is her “cause”, why is she focusing 100% of her energy on gays? She seems so sweet and sincere. I don’t understand it.

    Like

  8. jerbearinsantafe
    August 13, 2015

    Reblogged this on Fairy JerBear's Queer World News, Views & More From The City Different – Santa Fe, NM and commented:
    Here’s part two of the look at Grace Church Seattle and Asktgebigot…

    Like

  9. theoccasionalman
    August 15, 2015

    I remember the news stories from when that Parisian man was attacked, and the picture up there clutched my heart again. The violence makes me sad.

    Like

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